Actions, words, and results.

Hillary Clinton said during last night's debate that New Hampshire's voters never had quite as big a decision to make about the future of this country than they do on the 8th. She said that not because the national security of America hinged on it, not because our economy depended on it, not because our longevity depended on it-- but because it's their chance to ask themselves having learned the lessons of George W. Bush whether it was time to value accomplishments over charisma.

I read somewhere once that part of the reason the English loved the show "The West Wing" was because of their fascination with American politics: specifically the tremendous amount of faith we put behind our candidates in their views of the world and their morality, verging on religiosity. This faith that gets heaped on time and again in elections is very pretty and it makes stories for the newspapers: but is that enough to elect a President?

Is it enough to rely on faith that someone's intuition will prevail over the problems we know we already have? Is it enough to rely on faith that someone's experience, or lack thereof, is relevant to hunkering down and getting the policy work done that we desperately need? Is faith enough to ensure that the next president will not have wasted time learning the ropes and the hard Washington lessons the come with serving?

I don't think it is. I don't have that faith, because the Washington outsider always learns the same lesson-- I just want results. Faith isn't enough today, because words are not action. The best way to secure results is to elect someone who knows how to get them in Washington.

Chris Dodd and Joe Biden had a reason why they believed their campaigns would take hold (although Biden had a long history of working against the interests of progressives). They have gotten results, even under hostile administrations. But Democrats largely either didn't know or didn't care. Dodd implored in one debate: "This isn't about celebrity, this is about picking the best president," an argument that the Clinton campaign has been eager to take on. She too has gotten results, in Washington, under a hostile administration and she happens to be well known.

When I look at saving some money and investing it in a mutual fund, I read the prospectus. The words are lovely, but the results are what matter. And so, it's nice that words can possibly do a number of things. But that's not enough.

It'd be revolutionary to elect a president who isn't just a salesman. It'd be revolutionary to elect a president who has overcome a hostile press and earned the begrudged respect of numerous Republicans in the Congress and millions across rural America. It'd be revolutionary to elect a president who actually knows the mechanics of day, week, month, and year one in the White House and knows what to expect.

Change would be nice. Electing someone who isn't a Dark Horse candidate and who actually has something to show for her experience is a change. Electing someone who has suffered from no lack of criticism about her record even as it bears repeating that her record overshadows most of her rivals, barring Richardson, is a change. And of course, electing a woman president is a change.

But this election should be about results. Who will make them happen in Washington? I don't have to rely on faith to back Hillary Clinton's candidacy for change. She has a record of results to prove it.



Display:


Re: Actions, words, and results. (2.00 / 1)

By the way, I wanted to post a rant about how Edwards' performance last night but I didn't want to spend the time writing a post about it. Let me just point them out here.

Edwards' answer about his single biggest accomplishment in the Senate falls flat. He worked on a Patient's Bill of Rights. But it didn't pass the House.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were honest enough about accomplishments that we actually talked about things that got accomplished? Everyone in the Senate works on things. If that's going to be the standard, then Joe Biden wins. He's been in the Senate the longest.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:22:21 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Another problem with Edwards' debate performance is he's doing nearly the same thing he did in 2004. Instead of standing up like a distinct candidate with character and conviction, he's trying to ride Obama's coattails following Obama's win in Iowa.

The reality, of course-- incovenient as it is for him, is that Edwards narrowly eked out a second place finish by 0.28%. He's nothing like Obama and we all know it. So who does he think he's kidding?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

hey there is a  good interview by hillary clinton , actually making the case of talk vs action .

it is a good one.

http://thepage.time.com/sen-clinton-talk s-with-time/


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:27:15 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Wow, that's interesting to me. She basically gave the argument I'd been thinking about last night after catching up on most of the debate. I guess we'll see if it gets any play.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

I didn't see the debate but I would imagine Hillary Clinton would have been buried if she had " supposed lied " ( or maybe he didn't know , who knows ?) on national television


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary talking points (none / 0)

Well done! A faithful servant. The Hillary talking points have been duly reported.


by cmpnwtr on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:37:47 PM EST

Re: Hillary talking points (none / 0)

And? Do you disagree? Show a little courage a debate me.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary talking points (none / 0)

and, even.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Here's the thing. The presidency isn't a dictatorship. Any Democratic president is going to have the best the party and the country has to offer to help them devise and execute policy. It isn't a zero sum game between charisma and experience.

The Chris Dodds and Joe Bidens of the world don't get elected because their natural place is as administrators and policy wonks, not visionary leaders. A president who can't inspire is just as deficient as one who doesn't have a good team of people like that backing them up.  


by animated on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:43:37 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Here's an easier thing.

ad·min·is·ter (trasitive verb)

1: to manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of

The president is an administrator. He or she will manage the executive branch, delegate responsibilities, and meet with people on the Hill to persuade them to get to work on his or her priorities- among other things. HRC has excellent rapport with Republicans in Congress.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Yes, that is part of the job. But my point is that Hillary isn't unique is this regard, a much stronger case could be made for a Bill Richardson or a Chriss Dodd if that's all we need in a president. And you can rest assured that those Chris Dodd and Bill Richardson types will be there in either a HRC or Barack Obama presidency.

The having a beer thing is stupid, I'll admit, but there is something to be said for the ability to articulate a clear vision of where you want to take the country and mobilize and persuade large segments of the population. That's what I see in Obama that I don't see in Hillary.


by animated on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Well, then I have to disagree. Hillary Clinton has been extremely articulate as well as having achieved results in the past to show for her vision. It's one thing to say "we need a change and everyone who was in Congress in 2002 should be panned" but it's another thing to say someone has a unique chance as bringing change as the quintessential Washington outsider when even JFK couldn't get his reforms passed.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Where does Obama want to take the country?


by souvarine on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Now I'm beginning to feel sorry for Hillary.

Obama is operating on a whole different level now. Previously dis-engaged segments--including Democrats--are coming out JUST to vote for this man. These are the types not figured into conventional PENN-like campaign approaches. So it doesn't really matter what Hillary does, Obama is pulling support from an entirely different universe that she has NO chance to beat him with.

This isn't even a fair fight.


by Louverture on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:50:18 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

I honestly feel the bigger fault line than this change vs. experience crap is the triumph of the Reagan strategy of Obama and Axelrod over Hillary and Penn's Microtrends disaster.  


by animated on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Penn's entire analysis has been based on cynicism - the idea that women voters are somehow solely motivated by gender, that they will flock to a female candidate simply because of the candidate's gender, that they have no other orientation in politics, is offensive as hell, and proved to be way off the mark.  And now there are Hillbots on here arguing that women that support Obama are somehow dazzled by his charisma, and blinded to their own self-interest. If that consoles you, great, but what a miserable position to be in prior to Tuesday. Good luck selling that shit to my mother or grandmother.  You'll actually be supressing HRC's vote at that point...


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:00:07 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Funny how all you can talk about is Mark Penn.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

It is funny isn't it.  Fucking hilarious. I think it's because every dipshit Hillbot on here has quoted the guy to me for months.  He's your damn Rove, not mine.


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:12:17 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

You're so charming. I don't know what to do with myself.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Need some new material Geek - this "track record of results" (bla, bla, wheeze, fart, wheeze) stuff is real old.  And your smug tag line says it all (do they hand this stuff out to you guys?) Arrogance and incompetence are an ugly mix.  Hence my fixation on Penn and you clowns who are slaves to him...


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:21:25 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

I love how you fire off about incompetence as you are unable to reply to a comment within its thread.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Sorry Geek - did I lose you? I'll be more careful about minding my threads from now on - (I'm only allowed on her til mom calls for dinner anyway...how late can you stay up tonight?)


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

I think you should stay off of your mom, period.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

bye geek.  Even if you lose Tuesday, you'll still have your online world to return to.  Good luck little fella.


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (1.00 / 2)

Oops, I fucked up my threads again...Geek is gonna have a fit.


by LewisMumford on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:37:50 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (2.00 / 1)

Not at all, I think trolls are people too.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

My biggest questions for Senator Clinton now are why, after being shown that mortgage servicers are literally stealing homes from people all over the country, would she want to indemnify these same servicers from any legal action resulting from any modifications they make on loans? Depending on how the PSAs are worded in the individual prospectuses, servicers are both compensated for and authorized in making those modifications.

Why would she want to protect companies that have been shown to be literally stealing homes from homeowners, contributing to the current "mortgage crisis" and the deterioration of the economy?

Do her actions have anything to do with the fact that she has accepted PAC money from many of the most powerful mortgage lenders, financial institutions, and accounting firms in the world?


www.getdshirtz.com - Because, after all, all you have to lose - is your home.
by Mike Dillon on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:54:49 PM EST

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

People aren't having their homes stolen. They got sold a basket of goods on a housing upswing that had turned to a downswing. Everyone wants to prevent people from losing their homes, because no one wins in a foreclosure except the new buyer (certainly not the banks). I don't quite see where you're going with this.

Indemnifying the loan servicers is one of those non-populistic policy realities that exists today. I have to ask you how it is you think we can afford the the national debt that we currently hold. We've been selling stakes in our once booming real estate markets to buyers here and across the world who value us as a reliable market. If we go after the big mortgage companies and kill them, let's say (when it's pretty clear that they're already crumbling under their own weight), what will be gained? We're already headed into a recession. Imho, the homeowners on the verge of default are the priority.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 04:06:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

People absolutely are having homes literally stolen from them BG - I'm proof of that. I'm one of more than 281,100 FTC-certified victims of a mortgage servicer by the name of Select Portfolio Servicing f/k/a Fairbanks Capital Corp. as certified in USA/Curry v. Fairbanks. Info on the CA is available at the FTC's website and all over the web. Try looking up the term "Mortgage Servicing Fraud" when you have a moment.

MSF has been around far longer than the current housing "bubble". It actually goes back at least to the early 90s and most likely shortly after the securitization of loans began. Mortgage Servicing Fraud is a securitization issue. What you are talking about and what a good portion of the current "bubble" is concerning is an ORIGINation issue.

Servicers have been literally creating default situations for homeowners by holding payments until they are past due, assigning force placed insurance to loans despite homeowners having their own policies in place, charging fees that are not allowed per the terms of the very notes that they service.

I'd be willing to bet that you are involved in the industry somewhere BG. The "no one wins in a foreclosure situation especially not the banks" rhetoric came out entirely too quickly. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth - especially in the cases of securitized loans. The various insurance policies covering the trusts themselves, pmi, etc., not to mention any equity that may have accumulated in the property ensure that note holders, whether the original lender or future note holders, get their money - and then some. Servicers especially benefit from "default" situations because in every prospectus I've read servicers are allowed to keep things like modification fees, force placed insurance fees, and monthly LATE FEES as ADDITIONAL SERVICING COMPENSATION." The industry mantra of "everyone loses on foreclosures" simply is...not...true.

But you are absolutely correct in that the "big mortgage companies" did themselves in as we are all seeing now. How and why do you think that happened? You don't think that things like inflated appraisals and lax lending criteria had anything to do with that do you? <gasp> How about YSPs and kickbacks? Of course, the brokers wouldn't have the products to sell if the lenders didn't create them would they?

But with regards to Mortgage Servicing Fraud, you and I are talking apples and oranges. To get back on topic, Servicers are already empowered to make modifications to loans per the terms of the Pooling and Servicing Agreements of the various prospectuses that they service. One of the reasons that servicers aren't make modifications to loans is that it is more profitable for servicers to keep a borrower in default for as long as possible - thereby pocketing all of the late fees and various other fees that can be generated. Once a loan is modified it no longer generates monthly late fees - at least not unless it returns to default status again which really is the best of both worlds for servicers.

I've been fighting an illegal foreclosure on my home for what is now my seventh year BG. As far as I know I'm the first homeowner in the country to have obtained both permanent injunctions and contempt orders against a servicer without having to file for Chapter 13 protection so don't tell me that people aren't losing their homes through illegal foreclosures engineered by mortgage servicers. I had a Superior Court Judge confirm it in my case and there is plenty of case law out there at this point to confirm it. But don't take my word for it. Nightline did a piece on Mortgage Servicing Fraud a few weeks ago. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/RealtyChe ck/story?id=4002397&page=1

And if you decide that you are at all curious, University of Iowa's Professor Katherine Porter's "Misbehavior and Mistakes" study can be downloaded at www.ssrn.com. The study is actually a road map of Mortgage Servicing Fraud somewhat in reverse. Bankruptcy is where all Mortgage Servicing Fraud victims are headed unless they simply walk away from their properties. The study explains many of the issues that MSF victims have to deal with from the very day that they are targeted to have their homes stolen.

Yes, defaulting homeowners should be a priority. Unfortunately not all of them though. Those who have been taken unfair advantage of through the creation of fraudulent documents or otherwise blatantly misled during the mortgage application and/or underwriting process should absolutely be helped ASAP. But those who simply bought "too much house" or can't otherwise afford the mortgages for reasons of their own or the investor/flippers should be allowed to go down with the ship. That is the simple nature of real estate ownership/investment. To allow them to be bailed out simply is not fair to those homeowners who have made their payments. Senator Clinton's campaign might have taken a closer look at that before her predatory lending platform roll-out event.

But as far as the servicers go, there is absolutely no reason for them to be given preferential treatment in the form of legal indemnification ESPECIALLY for executing a task, like loan modifications, for which they PROFIT. I'm just wondering if the National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts or any of the other big mortgage industry PAC contributors had any influence on the Senator's decision.


www.getdshirtz.com - Because, after all, all you have to lose - is your home.
by Mike Dillon on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 05:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Well, first let me say that I am sorry that you're having trouble with your loan servicer and are fighting to keep your home. I wish you the best of luck. It's none of my business how it is that you came to get your particular home loan that was a marketable derivative rather than a more traditional loan. But you do have my sympathies.

Also, I am not a member of any home financial industry. I'm a full-time student.

My understanding of Hillary's position is that certainly we need to adjust lending criteria as well as regulations and transparency regarding such derivatives. But this goes to a larger macroeconomic crisis of confidence in our capital markets. Clearly we need to take a step back and figure out how to find an amicable result for home owners and investors while not hurting America's position as an attractive place to invest.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 06:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

According to figures I've read roughly 80% of all loans, whether prime, sub-prime, Alt-A, "traditional" or "exotic" are bundled into the various securitizations these days BG. That said, Mortgage Servicing Fraud potentially affects a MUCH larger demographic (literally anyone who has a mortgage) than Predatory Lending. What happened to my loan had nothing to do with the origination. I had no problems with the original note holder. My problems began when the loan was sold to Merrill Lynch supposedly all of two weeks after the loan originated. I say "supposedly" because of the fraudulent and fabricated documents involved.

What everyone, including Senator Clinton and her NH campaign staff, seems to fail to realize is the magnitude of Mortgage Servicing Fraud. There were 281,100 certified victims in USA/Curry v. Fairbanks back in 2004. 281,100 victims of one servicer. There are at least a dozen servicers out there now conducting business in the same manner that Fairbanks/SPS was accused of doing business.  

"Lending criteria" has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I've been saying here. "Lending criteria" apply to loan originations. Servicers have absolutely zero to do with the origination process. What Senator Clinton wants to do is shield mortgage servicers from any legal ramifications that may or may not arise from them modifying loans. Modifications that, I might add, servicers are already authorized to perform depending on the wording of the PSAs/prospectuses of the trusts and get paid to perform if the PSA awards them modification fees as "additional servicing compensation."

And the "larger macroeconomic crisis" has already shaken the confidence in our capital markets and markets of other countries. That's part of the reason that we're now seeing multi-billion dollar write downs from the likes of Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch et al. And more are on the way.

Senator Clinton wants to punish mortgage brokers for their actions. Fine. We've already got enough laws on the books to punish them - the problem there is that, so far, very few courts are willing to hand out justice significant enough to appropriately deter brokers. Million dollar salaries have a tendency of tempting people to break the law. Gordon Gekko was only partially right - "Greed works." But only as long as there are those willing to allow it to flourish.

And by shielding mortgage servicers from any legal action due to modification of loans, they will continue stripping the vast majority of homeowners they victimize of the single largest investment that they have ever made. And they will be doing it with Senator Clinton's blessing and protection from prosecution.

The American homeowner didn't cause the majority of this current crisis. Yes, some made false claims on documentation and fraudulently took out loans on properties. That has been happening since mortgages were first invented. And that is why underwriting is charged with "due diligence". But that admittedly becomes more difficult when the brokers are submitting fabricated documents.

As far as America's position as "an attractive place to invest" if anything, it is even MORE attractive now than it was before because the financial market is having the equivalent of a "fire sale" as evidenced by the influx of massive amounts of foreign capital (Dubai, Singapore, etc) into shareholder positions of some of the most powerful financial institutions in this country and the world. The American homeowner shouldn't be saddled with the majority of blame for this current fiasco. That responsibility should be laid at the feet of the lenders who created the mortgage products that the brokers sold and the lending criteria that the brokers followed.

No more than illegal drug trafficking, the homeowner is the end user, the broker the dealer, the underwriter the distributor, and the mortgage product creator the manufacturer. You never end the war taking down the little guys because the demand will always be there. That is who will be targeted under Senator Clinton's plan. And under that plan the servicing end of the industry, the "muscle", will continue to skate from any legal responsibility. And Mortgage Servicing Fraud will continue to flourish.


www.getdshirtz.com - Because, after all, all you have to lose - is your home.
by Mike Dillon on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 08:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Obviously, I disagree with your assessment of where our economy is now and where it's going. 2008 will be a rough year, especially for areas where the housing boom took hold like Southern California, where I live. The housing market will take months to clear as housing inventories pile up and prices grind down slowly.

You're obviously very passionate about this, and I commend you. But someone isn't just a crony because she doesn't want to do something brash in one specific corner of an already shaky market.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 02:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actions, words, and results. (none / 0)

Passionate? Of course I'm passionate, I've been fighting to save my home from an illegal foreclosure for seven years now. But you've got it backwards, BG. By protecting servicers she IS doing something brash. And one of these days, the United States is going to wake up, look around and from an economic standpoint collectively say, "Why is it so warm and why are we in this hand basket?" And it will be thanks to, in large part, the mortgage and banking market that got greedy.

Months for the housing market to clear? We're probably looking at better than two years for the market to even begin to clear never mind recover and start to bounce back.

What concerns me the most is that we brought Mortgage Servicing Fraud and the enormity and severity of the problem directly to the attention of Senator Clinton AND her NH campaign staff, gave them access to our attorney AND gave them a copy of our litigation. http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speec h/view/?id=3888
And despite having that information she still chooses to protect the servicers over the homeowners being victimized by them and losing their homes because of them. Combine that with the list of PAC contributors from the mortgage, banking and accounting worlds and it speaks volumes to me. This isn't change. This is business as usual. And this is what got us here in the first place.


www.getdshirtz.com - Because, after all, all you have to lose - is your home.
by Mike Dillon on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 07:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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